ResponderSafety.com Podcast

The Emergency Responder Safety Institute presents the ResponderSafety.com podcast, a closer look at hot topics, new information, innovative approaches, and case studies in responder safety at roadway incidents and in traffic incident management. Listen for practical, actionable information you can implement today at your next roadway incident response to improve safety of emergency response personnel and the public, no matter which agency you work for. Come learn from interviews and special features with experts and leaders in emergency services. All agencies who respond to roadway incidents — fire, EMS, fire police, law enforcement, DOT, safety service patrols, special traffic units, medevac, and towing and recovery — are all welcome and will find value in what we discuss.

Rod Ammon: Welcome to the ResponderSafety.com Podcast, brought to you by the Emergency Responder Safety Institute, a committee of the Cumberland Valley Volunteer Firefighters Association. To remain mindful of why we do this work, we start every podcast with an update of emergency responders struck by fatalities. Since January 1st, 2024, 11 emergency responders were struck and killed while assisting the public on the roadway. We have information on the loss of these responders and a memorial tribute available at ResponderSafety.com/fatalityreports. Our thoughts are with their families and colleagues. Please visit ResponderSafety.com for more than 150 resources and training that will help you operate more safely at roadway incidents and educate the public about how to safely avoid or pass an emergency scene on the roadway. Today we're welcoming Jack Sullivan to lead our discussion on autonomous vehicles. Jack is the director of training for the Emergency Responder Safety Institute or ERSI and a subject matter expert on roadway incident operations and emergency personnel safety. He was a volunteer firefighter and chief officer for 23 years and retired in 2018 from a 40-year career as a safety and risk management consultant for the public and private sector. Jack teaches roadway incident safety and survival workshops for emergency responders for ERSI and as a master instructor for the Federal Highway SHRP2 Traffic Incident Management train-the-trainer workshops. Most importantly for our discussion today, Jack has been actively involved with autonomous vehicle technology development for many years as the eyes, ears, and voice of emergency responders in the process of developing and regulating this technology. Jack, grateful to have you here with us to frame the issue and guide our discussion. Before we bring in our interviewees, can you summarize for us the emergency services' perspective on autonomous vehicles, how they've developed and how ERSI has been involved and where those issues are today?

Jack Sullivan: Sure. Thanks, Rod. I guess our interest in this particular technology started a few years ago, back in the early 2000 teens, when we started to hear about autonomous vehicle technology and automated driver assistance systems and things like that. And the news started broadcasting some examples of incidents, crashes mostly, involving new automotive technology. And as we travel around the country and we're teaching workshops on roadway incident safety and survival, I was getting hit with a lot of questions about the technology that we hadn't really dived into yet. So we started asking a lot of questions of government regulators for one thing, all of the alphabet soup agencies that are out there that are involved with transportation and vehicles, and they couldn't answer many of our questions either. In 2018, I was fortunate to be invited along with Ken LaSala from the International Association of Fire Chiefs to go out to Chandler, Arizona and meet with Chief Wiggins from the Chandler Fire Department and personnel from Waymo who was operating an autonomous vehicle fleet at that time in Chandler to learn what we could about the vehicle technology for starters and more important, to get a chance to ask some questions about how the fire chief and his personnel in Chandler were learning how to work with those vehicles in the Chandler, Arizona area. We spent a full day with both the firefighters and the personnel from Waymo. I got my first ride in a Waymo vehicle back then and was not only amazed at the technology, but as a guy that's interested in the technology anyway and automobiles and whatnot, the fact that this vehicle could operate as it did with no driver interacting with it was pretty phenomenal. And frankly, I was nervous when we first started out on the ride. But by the time we were done about 45 minutes later, I had a much better understanding of the capabilities of the vehicles and felt much more comfortable with the technology too. But we still had a lot of questions about how fire, EMS, law enforcement, tow truck drivers, safety service patrol operators and those folks would have to deal with these vehicles as time went on. I guess the next step in the evolution of what we've been doing was when the Governors Highway Safety Association at the beginning of 2023, the latter part of 2022 asked us to help them develop an introductory program for emergency responders on automated vehicle technology. And that helped a lot because it gave us a chance then to assemble an expert panel, including our two guests today and several others from the industry, who know far more about these vehicles than we do. When Rod says that I've been involved with the development of these vehicles, I haven't had anything to do with developing these vehicles. What we've been trying to do is to understand what this automated vehicle technology involves and how emergency services personnel can interact with it in a variety of different scenarios that we might be involved with. We finished the program not too long ago. We've deployed a pilot program and we're planning on helping the Governors Highway Safety Association to get that out to more people around the country. But one of the things that we were concerned about during the development process was that the technology's changing, changing very quickly as a matter of fact. And what we've got is just the basics to help our personnel and responders around the country understand terminology involved with the technology for starters and what we're going to talk about today with Rob and Gary about the basic principles of interacting with these vehicles should you be involved with an incident with them.

Rod Ammon: That's excellent, Jack. Thank you. Let's bring our guests into the discussion. With us today to talk about these issues in autonomous vehicles are Gary L. McCarthy and Rob Patrick. Mr. McCarthy is the senior manager of law enforcement interaction for Aurora, a self-driving technology developer. Aurora's space is primarily trucking and ride hauling vehicles. Prior to joining Aurora, he was a law enforcement officer beginning his career in 1994 and eventually retiring as bureau chief. He's a graduate of Northwestern School of Police Staff and Command Class number 208. Rob Patrick, he's in charge of the emergency response and outreach team at Waymo, an autonomous driving technology company owned by Alphabet Inc., the parent company of Google. Mr. Patrick retired from the California Highway Patrol after 30 years of service, 10 as an executive. His team at Waymo conducts proactive outreach and training with first responder communities that serve the areas where Waymo operates. In his law enforcement capacity, Patrick has served on several California state and national safety committees, including CBSA, AAMVA, CALMITSAC, and SHSP. He has presented nationally and internationally on the critical importance of first responder collaboration and integrating autonomous vehicles into the national transportation framework. Thank you both for taking the time. Jack, I'll turn things over to you now to drive our conversation.

Jack Sullivan: All right, thanks, Rod. And I guess to start the conversation, it would help if we talk a little bit about what the two companies that you folks represent are doing these days. And Gary, I'll start with you. Can you give us just a brief intro to what Aurora is doing these days?

Gary McCarthy: Absolutely. Thank you for the time and thank you for the opportunity. Aurora is on a mission to deliver the benefits of self-driving technology safely, quickly, and broadly. We're mainly operating out of Texas right now with our commercial side, which is our ride hailing, but Aurora was formed in 2017 and we've been founded by Chris Urmson, Sterling Anderson, and Drew Bagnell, and they bring decades of experience in self-driving industry. We have a diverse team in Aurora. We're across the United States. Our headquarter's in Pittsburgh. We have offices in Mountain View, Montana, Colorado, and in Texas. But right now we're focusing on the commercial freight moving within Texas and the lanes between El Paso and Dallas and Houston and Dallas.

Jack Sullivan: Good. Thank you. And Rob, how about you give us a little bit of an idea of what Waymo's doing these days?

Rob Patrick: Thank you, Jack, and thank you for the opportunity to speak today. Waymo started in 2009 as the Google Self-Driving Car, and we've been working diligently since then to make it safe and easy for people and things to get where they need to be. We operate currently, though we have also been involved with the trucking element, we currently operate a ride hailing service in Phoenix, San Francisco Bay Area, Los Angeles, and Austin. We've been doing so since fully autonomous ride hailing has existed for us in the Phoenix region since 2018. We don't make cars. We make technology that can be placed on a vehicle platform, which allows that platform to operate in fully autonomous mode.

Jack Sullivan: Good. I guess one of the things that I would share at this point is that the interest level in this particular type of technology peaked back in the mid-teens when we started to hear in emergency services about incidents involving Tesla vehicles. And of course, Tesla has talked a lot about their autopilot functionality and that's what caught the attention of a lot of folks in the fire service that were asking me questions as we were talking about roadway incident safety. There's a difference between a Tesla that's a level 2 autonomous vehicle and a Waymo rideshare vehicle, for example, that's operating at a level 4 autonomous vehicle level. Rob, can you take a minute to help us understand the difference between a level 2 and a level 4 autonomous vehicle and just what an autonomous vehicle is?

Rob Patrick: Absolutely, Jack. So the Society of Automotive Engineers developed this scale basically running zero through five. And as you described, certain vehicle technology, which many or most of us will probably be familiar with, also known as advanced driver assist systems, exists in levels 1 through 3. That would be similar to advanced cruise control, advanced lane keep, other things that certainly provide for a safer highway situation, safer driving situation should a driver become drowsy. Important thing to note however is level 1 through 3 systems are in fact designed to always need an attentive human driver behind the wheel. Conversely, level 4 and 5 autonomy is designed from the beginning to never need a human driver behind the wheel. And it's super important in my view for first responders to understand the difference in the technologies they're dealing with as they interact with both advanced driver assist systems and autonomous vehicle technology.

Jack Sullivan: Exactly. And I think that was one of the things that we learned in our visit to Chandler in 2018. A lot of the questions that we were getting from emergency services personnel was related to what they were hearing in the news about a level 2 Tesla type crash or incident. What we learned in Chandler was that we were dealing with vehicles with far more capabilities and the fact that, like you said, they don't need a driver behind the wheel. Gary, when we talk about commercial truck fleets and things like that, how are you folks using this self-driving technology with your freight operations in Texas?

Gary McCarthy: Well, currently we're still testing in Texas. We use what we call commercial loads for industry which are non hazmat, mostly 53 foot drive vans running between Dallas and Houston and El Paso and Dallas. And what we're using is that technology with LiDAR, radar, and the video cameras to run the vehicle on the highway in Interstate 45 and I-20 and I-10. The vehicles are manned with a driver in the right seat. They're there for the safety driver and the Aurora driver drives those roadways daily under AV mode.

Jack Sullivan: Good. Okay. One of the things that I think is confusing for some folks in the emergency services field is there's this feeling or understanding, I guess, on their part that all autonomous vehicles are also electric vehicles. Is that true?

Gary McCarthy: No. Our commercial fleet is all diesel engine trucks, traditional. They have steering wheels, pedals, everything like that. They're not battery operated at all, so they're dealing with a truly combustion engine just like they would normally with an 18 wheeler.

Jack Sullivan: And your company, Gary, is actually developing the technology to operate just about any kind of vehicle with this autonomous technology. Is that correct?

Gary McCarthy: So no, just like Rob said, we don't build it for aftermarket use. It's built by OEM. So we partnered with Toyota for our ride hailing side and we have Packard and Volvo for our truck side. So they'll come off the assembly line through a manufacturer with this technology on board.

Jack Sullivan: Good. Okay. Rob, what kind of vehicles are you folks using at Waymo at this point?

Rob Patrick: Currently, we are using the Jaguar I-PACE, which is an all electric vehicle. But as Gary pointed out and as we mentioned earlier, we don't design the vehicles themselves. We design technology. In our case, similar to Gary's, we use LiDAR, radar, and cameras to create a redundant navigation system that enables whatever platform we might place this technology on to operate safely.

Jack Sullivan: Okay, good. What specific terminology do you think we explain now before we get too far into the conversation today that might be important for the listeners to understand? We've already mentioned autonomous vehicles and a lot of times the acronym AV is used for that. We mentioned the levels that autonomous vehicles are scored at, level 0 through 4 and 5. Is there any other terminology that we should bring to the forefront before we get deeper into the discussion?

Rob Patrick: Jack, I would point out, it's maybe not specific terminology, but it's an idea and that is that when we talk about autonomous vehicles, we're talking about technology that is operating a system. We're talking about a technology that learns from every experience it has. So in Waymo's case, every vehicle we have out there on the roadway is learning from every other vehicle every day all the time. In addition to that, we also use simulation. So we're talking millions and millions of miles. To my point here, those vehicles, the technology operating the vehicles, so there's a common misconcept that I see regularly when we're training first responders that is there somebody in a control room somewhere, in a command center that is operating the vehicle, someone with a joystick? And that's not the case at all. We do monitor our vehicles 24/7, but the technology is driving the vehicle.

Gary McCarthy: And then one thing I'd add to that and to Rob's point is these vehicles driving, especially for us on our operational design domain, ODDs, they only run on certain corridors. They're not going to be just released into the wild. So for us, I-45, I-20, those vehicles will run those areas only. They won't be just going anywhere in the country.

Rob Patrick: Gary makes a fantastic point, Jack, there. Level 4 autonomous vehicles, which is what we operate at Waymo, are designed to operate in what we call an operational design domain, or as you may hear it described ODD. What that basically references is the vehicles have a specific area where they operate that they come to fully understand that environment and they will not operate in autonomous mode outside of that environment.

Jack Sullivan: Great. One of the things I've done in the last few years is work with the National Committee on Uniform Traffic Control Devices and a lot of conversation that committee over the last few years has been how we need to modify and in some cases design roadway signs and markings to make it easier and more effective for autonomous vehicles to use the technology on board, radar, LiDAR, cameras, et cetera, to navigate. And there's been a lot of work on their end to looking to the future, making sure that roadway markings and signage and things like that is done in the best way that's best understood and interpreted by cameras, radar, LiDAR, et cetera, that are on these autonomous vehicles as they navigate down the roadways. And that's where the interaction with emergency services come in. When we've got emergency responders that are working at an incident scene, they're asking questions about how do we alert an autonomous vehicle that there's something going on up ahead and how do we get that autonomous vehicle to react appropriately as it approaches an incident scene? Both of you guys have experience as emergency responders, myself included. And I was surprised as we've been talking over the last few months that occasionally when you're getting ready to go into a new area, this operational domain that you're talking about, that not everybody welcomes you with open arms about coming in and doing training. How do you guys approach training emergency responders when you go into a new area? And Gary, I'll start with you on that one.

Gary McCarthy: Well, even before you start with the training, for me in particular, I've been in this space now since I retired in '20. And when asked, what would I look at as an assistant chief of if something new is coming in technology wise for first responders and how are we going to interact with them, public safety is usually the last to know it's coming. They have zero input and it's going to impact resources. I took that approach. I really got there ahead of the game and started talking to people well in advance of us actually coming into the area, letting them know, providing information, giving a highlight overview of what Aurora is, what we do, what the technology is. And that really sets the stage. One thing I found since I retired, and Rob could probably speak to this as well, is once you retire, you don't see the changes day in and day out like you did with how business is conducted and the boots on the ground every day seeing the changes in how directing the traffic, things of that nature, it really brings it full circle. So when you start the training, you're getting buy-in from the troops on the ground, "Hey, this is what we're seeing now. This is what we're having to deal with," and you can adapt that training to them. But once you get out there and really start talking to them and the buy-in from the get-go from both fire, police, and EMS is once you're there, they're really engaged and they bring up some great ideas. And it's a two-way street. It's a great flow back and forth, and the training goes very, very well on that side of it.

Jack Sullivan: Yeah, that's good stuff. I think, Rob, you were the one that in one of our conversations was telling me that on occasion when you try to introduce yourself in a new territory, that some of the fire departments have not necessarily taken you up on your offer for training and interaction on the new technology that's coming their way. Is that still the case?

Rob Patrick: Yeah, there's a little bit of that, Jack, and it's completely understandable. We understand that no matter where you operate in the first responder world, whether you're on the fire, law enforcement side or wherever it might be, that today's resources are slim and it's difficult to get your folks to the mandatory training that they need. So it's understandable, but I would emphasize that it's super important for them to understand our technology, how it operates, how to operate around it and operate around it safely, and for them to have resources so that when they do have questions and we're operating in their community, they can come to us and ask those questions. At Waymo, similar to what Gary said, we're very focused on we don't go out and talk to first responders, we go out and talk with first responders about how our vehicles operate in their community, what nuances we may need to understand about their operations or their environment. And we try to provide them with a wide variety of resources. So we have our in-person training that we can conduct where they work, when they work. We don't ask them to come to a specialized training session away from their workplace. We go to where they work, when they work, and we train them at 6:00 AM and midnight and every hour in between. And then we also provide them with a dedicated website, waymo.com/firstresponders, where we provide our law enforcement interaction protocols or emergency response guide. And we have a video that we put out, which is great for refresher training. So we try to provide them a multitude of resources, understanding the restrictions associated with getting to training. But like anything new, it's important. I'll emphasize what Gary said moments ago. Yes, it may at times be difficult to get in the door, but once you engage with the first responders, they are highly engaged and very interested and they provide a lot of very, very important feedback.

Jack Sullivan: I had an interesting conversation with the folks at the Chandler Fire Department the day that we were out there in 2018, and one of the things that came across to me very quickly was the fact that they made it clear they weren't just listening to what you folks were telling them about your operation in Chandler. More importantly, the firefighters who were looking at and interacting with the vehicles were also providing feedback that you folks were actually listening to and making changes based on their recommendations from their perspective. I came away from that meeting telling the International Association of Fire Chiefs that the Chandler folks and Waymo had pretty much developed a best practice for communicating and collaborating by introducing these vehicles in the area and getting the emergency personnel involved with the vehicles and providing feedback and the communication and collaboration between the company and the agencies was excellent. I made that a recommendation after we came back from that visit and said that's one of the things that fire departments should be looking at as the fire chief's approach, that you folks are coming into town with high technology type vehicles that they ought to be welcoming with open arms and interacting with you. So let's get back to or get down to some of the specific questions that I get in the field from emergency responders when they start asking about autonomous vehicles. And one of the first questions that I usually hear is, will an autonomous vehicle react appropriately to an emergency vehicle that's traveling to an incident scene with emergency lights and sirens activated? Will the autonomous vehicle yield to emergency vehicles? And Gary, I'll put the question to you first.

Gary McCarthy: The answer is yes, they will, and they see them every day. While we're on the road, like Rob was saying, we're getting that data and run those re-simulations constantly. But we've gone above and beyond on that as well. So in Pittsburgh, we have a facility that we utilize that we partnered with the Pittsburgh Fire Department and Pittsburgh Police Department where we brought ladder trucks, rescue trucks, ambulances, rehab trucks, all in to be around the vehicle, interact with them. Also did police vehicles from sedans to SUVs to fully marked trucks, big trucks, and also police motorcycles as well. So we built that data through that data collect to have the vehicles be able to interact with emergency vehicles. We've also in December of last year, we partnered with the Frisco Police Department here and did some data collects on the I-45 corridor, which we had about 100 law enforcement interactions, pullovers, yielding scenarios on the I-45 in a two-day period. So yes, we do that. The vehicles do react. We also follow TIM. So if there's a vehicle, whether it be a tow truck, a broke down car, an emergency vehicle off right or off left, it'll move lanes. It'll slow down and move over. So the vehicles will do that and it actually does a very good job and can see up to 500 meters ahead of itself and is making decisions on that move over well in advance of most drivers.

Jack Sullivan: Great information. Rob, is it the same with your Waymo vehicles? Can they recognize and avoid a parked emergency vehicle working at an incident scene or on the side of the road?

Rob Patrick: Yes, absolutely, Jack. And as Gary pointed out and I'll emphasize that as well, our fleet that's out there operating fully autonomous right now and has been for quite some time, they encounter tens of thousands of emergency vehicles and emergency scenes per month. And we, of course, learn from every one of those experiences, and we're always looking to improve our behavior around emergency responders and emergency response scenes and vehicles. But our experience has been very positive. The technology does recognize these things and reacts to them appropriately.

Jack Sullivan: Do they understand temporary traffic control devices like traffic cones, which are one of the primary temporary traffic control devices? We teach emergency responders to use advanced warning signs. There's flares out there, chemical and electronic flares these days. How do the AVs react to those types of temporary traffic controls? Gary, I'll go with you first on that.

Gary McCarthy: Yes, they react the same way we were just talking about with the cones in place and the flares, the road signs, construction zones, even temporary. So far and well in advance, they can make those decisions to move. One thing that I think we've all talked about on previous conversations is when we get to the point where we have to build the data for directing traffic with hand signals and being more uniform than that, because three of us could do hand signals three different ways, so that way we are more consistent across the board. Rob and I, you and I have talked about that in the past as well, but seeing the traffic control devices and seeing the lane closure signs and flares and cones, they see that. What we really have to work on just the hand signaling of directing traffic traditionally with an officer or firefighter in the roadway. And we're working on that now. We're doing some testing and things now with Ohio State Police.

Jack Sullivan: Isn't it fair to say that we probably have some work to do on the emergency services side too to make the hand signals maybe a little bit more uniform across the country?

Gary McCarthy: Absolutely, and I think that's something that we... It would just come down to some time, some dedication of just watching what you're doing and how the vehicles interact with you. And it'd probably be clear for not only just the AVs, but the general motoring public as well.

Jack Sullivan: Rob, did you want to add anything to that?

Rob Patrick: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. As Gary alluded to, I mean, in our case, our vehicles are learning from every experience, and they will adjust based on the latest new learning. This goes back to the importance of working with first responders to understand what the latest process looks like. What is the latest technology in traffic control and how is it being used? But I always make it clear and my team always makes it clear when we're out conducting training that the more clear your direction is, the better the likelihood that the vehicle will recognize more quickly. At least those of us who come from the law enforcement side know, we learned at the academy about traffic control, but hand signals tend to get modified over time. So the more clear we can be, the greater the likelihood the situation will resolve itself rapidly.

Jack Sullivan: So we know that the autonomous vehicles can understand temporary traffic control devices. And with cones and things like that, they can follow a taper in the right direction to move over a lane to pass an incident scene. How should emergency responders stop an autonomous vehicle if necessary at an incident scene? Should they be using hand signals or cones, or is there some other preferred way? Rob, you want to take that first?

Rob Patrick: Yeah, I don't know there's a singular preferred way other than just to ensure that you're clear about what you would like. If your hand signal is clear that you don't want the vehicle to proceed, then the vehicle won't proceed. If you're seen as effectively blocked where a human would understand that they're not supposed to go into that area or they're not supposed to move forward, then the technology will understand it as well. It'll understand it much sooner and probably better than the average human, but it will understand it. So I think the critical element there is when you're protecting a scene, just be clear about the desired behavior.

Jack Sullivan: Gary?

Gary McCarthy: I would agree with that as well. And the one thing too is the way we interact and see down the road, a lot of times that we... Especially if it's staying on an interstate freeway that's going to be shut down for a while, if we know... We work with Texas DOT and all the DOTs. If we know there's an incident ahead of us, we won't launch into that and make it harder on the first responders by having another vehicle out there. So we have the opportunity and the ability to navigate that a little differently. We can move that vehicle into a safe place until the roadway clears, or we can have some go out and actually rescue that vehicle, in which we've done training with our rescue personnel as well here within Aurora. So that's the other thing. I think the one thing we want to throw out there is if there's an incident, weather, storms, whatever that could be, we take that into consideration. We don't make the situation worse for first responders when we don't need to be out there.

Jack Sullivan: Good to know. So the second most popular question that I get from responders at some of these training sessions is how do we ensure that an autonomous vehicle that's involved in an incident, it might be a crash, it might be a medical emergency or something like that, won't move when the emergency personnel arrive at the incident scene? Rob, you want to take a stab at that first?

Rob Patrick: Absolutely. So in most cases, if, for instance, the vehicle is involved in a crash, the autonomous driving system likely won't be working. But if a first responder wants to ensure in the case of our technology that the vehicle will not move, all they have to do is open a door. If the door is open just slightly, if the parking brake is set, or the vehicle is in park, our vehicle will not move. So that is the best way to ensure that it doesn't move at a scene.

Jack Sullivan: Gary?

Gary McCarthy: And for us, if the incident does occur, the vehicle will try to move to the right, clear the roadway. If not, it'll stay in place and there'll be a visual sign that that vehicle is safe to approach as part of our training. But also on the side of the truck, there's a 1800 number the officer can call, the firefighter can call to interact with our command center, which basically will be traditional dispatch center for police and fire and interact with our operator via the telephone, all those things to ensure the safety of the first responders on the scene that they know the truck's safe to approach.

Rob Patrick: If I could just add, Jack, to that, in our case as well, there is a dedicated 877 number for first responders that we provide during training, also available on our website, and also responders can communicate through the in-vehicle communication devices directly with our control center to ensure that they're fully aware of the status of the vehicle.

Jack Sullivan: What about the doors are locked on the vehicle?

Rob Patrick: In our case, if the vehicle's involved in something, generally if we encounter an emergency vehicle or the vehicle is involved in some sort of event, the doors will automatically be unlocked and the windows would be rolled down. So if that for some odd reason were not the case, then the first responder could reach out to our control center and ask them to roll the windows down. I also emphasize that the most important thing is the protection of life. So if there's a need to break a window, whatever needs to be done.

Gary McCarthy: And for us on the interstate side of things, when an incident occurs like that, they need to get in safer for tow, if the vehicle needs to be towed or things like that, they can unlock the doors remotely, just like Rob's saying, and let the tow truck operator get in to recover the vehicle or move it. Like I said, it's got the gas pedal, brakes, everything else, steering wheel, so it can be removed. But that all goes to our command center.

Jack Sullivan: Is there anything unique about the way a law enforcement officer would have to approach an autonomous vehicle in a traffic stop situation?

Gary McCarthy: So what we did here at Aurora, again, I'm a TIM instructor and that's what I live by, is that everything on the right side of the vehicle is where they'll do their business. It's right by the sleeper berth. That's where the 1800 number is. That's where all the documents are kept, and they work through our command center to get the number to get into the box to get the paperwork. But everything, when the traffic stops initiated, they'll get a visual response that the truck sees, they're getting pulled over, they'll move to the side of the road. Once it's stopped, they'll approach on the right-hand side. They can interact with our command center either via through the 1800 number or through their police radio, through their dispatch center to call their command center. And then once the traffic stop concludes and they put everything away, the first responder lets them know, hey, you're free to go. The truck will hold in that place until their first responder returns back to their vehicle, and then it'll merge back on the freeway from there. So everything's done in the tradition of what we do. Rob and I, we've talked about officer safety. We know being on the side of the road is very dangerous and we want to minimize how much time is spent on the side of the road to clear that roadway as quickly and as officially as possible.

Rob Patrick: From the Waymo's side, Jack, I echo pretty much what Gary said. If you initiate an enforcement stop for some reason on our vehicle, you can approach the vehicle just like you would in any other scenario. In our case, the windows will be down, the doors will be unlocked. Documentation for our vehicles is located above both sun visors. So for whatever reason, if an officer can't approach from the right side, there is documentation on the left. And then forward of both of the mirrors on the exterior of the car, there is a QR code. The first responder can scan that QR code and that will immediately dial the number for our operation center so they can get any other additional questions they might have answered. And as I said before, if they want to be sure the vehicle doesn't move once they're performing their function at that stop, then they can just open the door, pop a door open and the vehicle won't move.

Jack Sullivan: And I know from earlier conversations with both of you that you have specific instructions for tow operators to use should they need to be involved with towing or recovering one of your vehicles either after an incident or for some other reason. Is that correct?

Gary McCarthy: Yes, and they'd go through the same 1800 we were talking about before. What we've experienced is they'll go through. A first responder will be on scene as well. So we have that there.

Jack Sullivan: All right. Rob?

Rob Patrick: Yes, exactly. They could use that 800 number. They can also just use the vehicle internal communications devices to talk to someone to get their questions answered. And as part of my team that does outreach, we try to work with state towing authorities and associations to ensure that the tow service providers have the information they need to interact with our vehicles.

Jack Sullivan: All right, great. Gary already talked about where your autonomous trucks are being used, and one of the questions we get asked frequently is what kind of cargo are the autonomous vehicle trucks hauling these days? Obviously the fire chiefs are interested in any unusual hazardous materials that they might encounter. Are your trucks carrying hazardous materials?

Gary McCarthy: No, they're not. We have drive vans and we have a couple of reefers. We run with a few reefers as well for customers, but we're not hazmat placard vehicles at all.

Jack Sullivan: Are there any other exposures that we should be thinking about that might be unusual with your autonomous trucks?

Gary McCarthy: No, not outside what a normal firefighter, a police officer would expect on any tractor-trailer hauling goods for service. There could be small loads of batteries and things on board, but other than that, it would be what they do day in and day out.

Jack Sullivan: And I think it's important to remind people that we said this earlier, but your trucks are internal combustion engine trucks, they're not electric vehicles, correct?

Gary McCarthy: That is correct.

Jack Sullivan: Okay, good. So one of the things that we teach in traffic incident management training classes you guys know is that for minor incidents, very often the safest thing to do is to relocate or move the vehicles involved out of an intersection or away from the heavily used lane of traffic. Can emergency services relocate your vehicles if necessary? If the damage isn't too significant, there are no injuries, can we follow the move it or work it guidelines that have been provided in the TIM training that's out there? Rob, I'll go with you first on that one.

Rob Patrick: Yeah, and the answer is absolutely. We provide first responders during the training process with information on how to quickly disengage our vehicle should it be in autonomous mode. At the moment, it takes only seconds. And then once the vehicle is disengaged, it operates just like any other human operated vehicle.

Jack Sullivan: Good. Gary?

Gary McCarthy: With our truck, it's a little different with how big they are and having CDL and things like that, but the tow truck driver could move it from the roadway. We could actually give a command to move off to the roadway on small limited basis. But for the most part, any incident that the vehicle occurs, it's programmed to move to the shoulder if needed or necessary. So yes, just like Rob said, we'll try to clear the road and so it doesn't create more hazard for the first responders.

Jack Sullivan: And as emergency responders are known, they are always trying to think up the worst case scenario. And one of the questions we get frequently is if an autonomous vehicle is overturned or upside down after an incident, as they approach that vehicle, do we need to be concerned about the wheel still moving even though the vehicle is upside down? And how do we render it safe in that kind of situation? And Rob, I'll go to you first on that one.

Rob Patrick: Well, I would think in a situation where the vehicle is upside down, the significance, the magnitude of that particular collision was considerable. The likelihood would be in that case that the autonomous driving system would not be engaged. So the concerns would be no different than it would be for any, in our case, Jaguar I-PACE, didn't have our AV technology on it. And again, it's about resources available to first responders. If there's ever a question about the condition of the vehicle, whether it's in a fully autonomous mode or not, if that system is still activated, then they could always reach out to our command center and ask the question.

Jack Sullivan: Good. Gary, did you have anything else to add to that?

Gary McCarthy: That's exactly what I was going to say, and also it goes back to, like I said, when the vehicle's on its side, what do we typically do in first responders when that occurs normally? Usually the engine floods out, the tires don't stay engaged, it turns off, all those things. But if there's any question at all, we're going to hand out info cards that officers can carry with them with their info cards in their shirt pocket. If they have a question, they can call us and they can talk command center and work through that situation case by case basis. But like Rob said, if it's that catastrophic event, it's going to be something they've dealt with in the past as well.

Jack Sullivan: All right, so the last area we want to cover is how can we advise the folks that are listening to this podcast today on how to learn more about the autonomous vehicle technology that's out there and more importantly, to stay up to date on the developments and changes that might be involved. You've talked about when you go into an area, but how about those folks that are listening that don't have autonomous vehicle operations in their area at this point? Can you recommend how they would learn about this technology or keep up with it with some specific resources that might be out there? And Rob, I'll go to you first on that one.

Rob Patrick: Well, yeah, thanks, Jack. That's a great point. I think the more educated our first responder community is, the better off everyone will be. And I had the opportunity to work with you and Governors Highway Safety Association on the training program that you're developing, which I think is an excellent resource for them. But whether Waymo is operating in your community currently or not, if you want to know more about first responder operations and autonomous vehicles, especially as it relates to Waymo, then you can go to our website at waymo.com/firstresponders and all of my team's contact information can be located there. We are happy to answer any questions or provide a training, again, regardless of whether or not we're operating in your area today.

Jack Sullivan: And we can add that information to our resource list that'll accompany this podcast when it's published. Gary, how about you from your perspective?

Gary McCarthy: Knowledge is power. And one thing people think it's years down the road. It's here now, and the more information you can gather and really research it. There's so many videos out online about Aurora, about all the different tech companies out there doing what we're doing. And for us, going to Aurora.tech and looking at our website having contact. Rob and I continue to go back to say, "Contact us directly." We'll share this information with anybody. After the Safety Officer Conference in Phoenix, I've been contacted by three or four different fire departments wanting to know more about it and I'm engaging with them. So once we start getting that engagement, we'll talk to anybody. It doesn't matter if we're in your area or not. The more people that know about it, what's the realities of it, what it's not, and just what we're doing proactively to make all first responders safe and interacting with our vehicles is critical.

Jack Sullivan: That's great. I'm glad that some of the departments have followed up with you after the Fire Department Safety Officers Conference in January out there in Phoenix. I should mention for the folks that are listening to this podcast that Gary and Rob are both going to be helping me out at the Fire Department Instructors Conference this year in April when we're talking about roadway incident safety and survival. We've added additional time to talk specifically about autonomous vehicle operations and some of the concerns and questions that we've talked about today. We'll go into a little bit more detail at FDIC. I think one of the things that I came away with as I've worked with you guys over the last year and when I started to learn about autonomous vehicles, I guess, with the first trip to Chandler, the first thing that we suggested at the time was that emergency services personnel need to get familiar with the technology, the terminology, and the type of vehicles that are being deployed. They need to understand what the difference is between a level 2 and a level 4 autonomous vehicle. And unfortunately, a lot of the information that we hear these days comes from sources that aren't necessarily up to speed and aware of what the differences are. The news media is famous for providing information that's not all the time accurate. So it's important that we give it to the source. And like Rob and Gary both said, their companies are both interested in talking to you, whether you've got operations in your area or not. If your area is approached and that one of these companies or any of the autonomous vehicle operations that are out there say they're coming to your area and are looking to deploy, they're certainly going to reach out to engage with you, and we want you to take advantage of that engagement. Ask questions. Interact with them. Collaborate with them. Learn from them. Don't just turn them away. As Gary and Rob have talked about earlier in the program, we know it's difficult to add even more training to the daily and weekly schedules that are out there, but this is one of those areas that you need to have that conversation and collaboration going forward and making sure that your personnel understand the technology and how to interact with it. And then I think one of the things we didn't talk about yet today, but because of the high level of interest on the part of the general public, one of the things we learned in Chandler was that your agencies, whether it's law enforcement, fire, EMS, whatever the case may be, you should probably be looking at developing procedures for communicating with the public if you have an incident in your area involving an autonomous vehicle. The news media's recording will be heavier than usual. They'll have more questions. They'll be talking about it more. These stories tend to get shared across the country at that point. And the fire departments that I've talked to that have been involved with some of these incidents in the past, and Chandler was a good example, said that they were initially surprised at the level of interest shown by the news media at the time of the incident and they had to do a better job of preparing to answer those questions. So I would add that to the information that we've shared today. Rod, I'm going to turn it back over to you at this point. We've covered a lot of territory, and I appreciate Rob and Gary spending the time with us today to answer some of those questions and share their knowledge and hopefully get everybody headed in the right direction.

Rod Ammon: It was really nice to be able to sit back and listen to people who know what they're talking about. So Jack, I appreciate all the guidance. And Gary and Rob, so much appreciation comes from I know a lot of the people who are going to be listening to this. So thanks for what you've done. I know all of this is going to become more relevant as these AVs roll out across the nation and the technology continues to develop. I know since we were talking about it, there've been a whole lot of advances and a whole lot more communication with the emergency responder audience that's out there. Just one thing, Jack, that I wanted to remind people is that first of all, one comment was brought up, I think a couple of you mentioned it, about manual traffic control and the consistency that would help in some of these situations. And there is a relatively new module out at Responder Safety Learning Network on manual traffic control, and there's also information about connected and autonomous vehicles, modules on both, that people can get up there, Responder Safety Learning Network. So again, thanks to both of you, all three of you for being with us today. Anything else, Jack, that you want before we wrap up?

Jack Sullivan: No, I'm good. I think we covered a lot of territory today. Hopefully that'll give people an introduction to the technology and just a basic understanding of some of the techniques to use that they encounter in one of these vehicles and more importantly, where to go to get good information.

Rod Ammon: Thanks again to all of you. Now for some news from ResponderSafety.com. The United States Senate has passed a bipartisan resolution supporting the goals and ideals of a national move over law day to raise awareness for Slow Down, Move Over state laws to reduce struck by vehicle injuries and fatalities, and to recognize the important role fire and rescue personnel, emergency medical services personnel, law enforcement officers, tow truck operators, and transportation workers play in roadway safety. The resolution is sponsored by eight senators led by US Senators Richard Blumenthal, Democrat of Connecticut, Mike Braun, Republican of Indiana, and Tammy Duckworth, Democrat of Illinois. Many national organizations support the resolution including the IFC, IACP, TRAA, NBFC, IAFF, NASEMSO, and the Governors Highway Safety Association. The Slow Down, Move Over resolution is inspired by Corey Iodice, a tow truck operator for his family's business who was tragically struck and killed on the Merritt Parkway in Connecticut in 2020 while assisting a driver. Following his death, his sister, Cindy Iodice, launched Flagman, which was featured on a previous episode of our podcast. We have a new resource on ResponderSafety.com to help you get your traffic incident management and responder safety efforts off the ground. Jack Sullivan has put together a quick start resource that lays out key resources to build roadway incident scene safety training in your organization, including important specific topics like emergency lighting, blocking, PPE, and public education. Check this podcast page at RSLN.org for a link to the document. If you know of an incident where a person or an emergency vehicle is struck while operating at a roadway incident, please report it at reportstruckby.com. We are continuing to collect these reports to better understand how struck by incidents occur so we can determine what training, public education, and safety messaging is needed to reduce struck by incidents. Anyone can file a report and reports from all response groups are accepted. The site is mobile device responsive for easy reporting from the field or the station. Make reportsstruckby.com part of your debrief or incident report procedure for roadway responses. This project is supported by the Federal Highway Administration. This podcast, ResponderSafety.com and the Responder Safety Learning Network are made possible by funding from a Fire Prevention and Safety Grant from the Assistance to Firefighters Grant Program administered by FEMA and the US Department of Homeland Security. We appreciate your support and remember to share these podcasts with your colleagues to spread the word about safety practices at roadway incident scenes. Thanks for joining us today on the podcast. Stay safe, everybody. We'll see you next time. For ResponderSafety.com and the Emergency Responder Safety Institute, I'm Rod Ammon.

2024
Episode 11: ASTM Helmet Standard with Brady Robinette - Episode 11: ASTM Helmet Standard with Brady Robinette
Episode 10: Move Over with Melanie Clark - Our guest today knows the pain of a struck-by line-of-duty death. On October 11, 2018, Hanover County Fire-EMS experienced the tragic LODD of Lt. Brad Clark when he was struck and killed assisting at a crash scene. Lt. Clark’s wife, Melanie, has made it her life’s mission to carry on his legacy.
Episode 9: Commercial Electric Vehicles with Tom Miller - Tom Miller is with us today to talk about commercial electric vehicles.
Episode 7: A conversation with Chief Anthony Correia on Crew Resource Management - Chief Anthony Correia demystifies the concept of crew resource management and how you can apply it your organization’s roadway incident responses.
Episode 6: A conversation with Cindy Iodice Founder and CEO of Flagman Inc. - Flagman is a non-profit organization that promotes awareness of Slow Down Move Over through K-12 education outreach initiatives.
Episode 5: Towing and Recovery with Angela Barnett and Brian Riker - On the newest episode of the ResponderSafety.com podcast, Angela Barnett, Executive Director of the Arizona Professional Towing and Recovery Association, and Brian Riker, Executive Director of the Pennsylvania Towing Association, join us to talk everything towing and recovery — training, relationships on-scene with other emergency response organizations, incident command and management, protecting tow operators when they work, public education, and the biggest issues facing the profession in roadway incident response.
Episode 4: Secondary Crashes: Lessons from the NTSB - Our guest on the newest episode of the ResponderSafety.com podcast is Investigator Sheryl Harley of the National Transportation Safety Board’s Office of Highway Safety. Investigator Harley speaks with us about the NTSB’s role in investigating all transportation-related incidents, how they decide which incidents to investigate, and what happens during an investigation.
Episode 3: Rich Marinucci - On Episode 3 of the ResponderSafety.com podcast, Chief Rich Marinucci, Executive Director of the Fire Department Safety Officers Association (FDSOA), offers his take on the biggest safety risks to firefighters today, the role of the safety officer at roadway incident responses, why preventable deaths from operations like backing up apparatus are still happening, and the FDSOA’s new Certified Traffic Incident Management Technician credential.
Episode 2: Loveland-Symmes - Today we're going to take a closer look at the emergency services unit of the Loveland-Symmes Ohio Fire Department.
Episode 1: In the Beginning - Steve Austin and Jack Sullivan from the Emergency Responder Safety Institute discuss how the organization and ResponderSafety.com got started and plans for the future. Bob Beamis of the Pennsylvania State Police recounts his experience being struck and injured while working at a roadway incident scene.