Rod Ammon: Welcome to the RespondersSafety.com podcast, brought to you by the Emergency Responder Safety Institute, a committee of the Cumberland Valley Volunteer Firefighters Association. To remain mindful of why we do this work, we start every podcast with an update of emergency responders struck-by fatalities. Since January 1st, 2024, 26 emergency responders have been struck and killed while assisting the public on the roadway. We have information on the loss of these responders and a memorial tribute available at respondersafety.com/fatalityreports. Our thoughts are with their families and colleagues. Please visit respondersafety.com for more than 150 resources and training that will help you operate more safely at roadway incidents and educate the public about how to safely avoid or pass an emergency scene on the roadway.

ASTM International has released a new standard that directly impacts the personal protective equipment emergency responders wear at roadway incidents. ASTM E3422/E3422M-24, Standard Specifications for Protective Helmets Worn by Pedestrian Roadway Workers, is the first standard for a helmet designed specifically for the impact hazards of working roadway incidents.

With us today to discuss this new standard is Lieutenant Brady Robinette of Lubbock Fire Rescue. Lieutenant Robinette serves on the ASTM E34 Protective Helmets Worn by Pedestrian Roadway Workers task group that developed this standard. He started his career in the fire service as a volunteer with Wolfforth Fire & EMS 18 years ago. In 2011, he joined Lubbock Fire Rescue full-time and currently serves as a lieutenant. Additionally, he serves on Lubbock Fire Rescue's Traffic Safety Committee. In the wake of a struck-by-vehicle incident in Lubbock, Texas, Lieutenant Robinette authored an October 2020 Fire Engineering magazine article titled Roadway Incident Operations: What Helmet Is Right For the Job? This article was the catalyst for a movement that resulted in the development of ASTM E3422.

Welcome to the podcast, Brady. We're glad you're here with us today and appreciate you. Brady, I know you're too humble a person to say this, and you've said that authoring the standard was a team effort, but your leadership on this topic and specifically your research and pushing to get a standard for roadway incident response helmets is a huge part of why the standard was created, and created very fast as far as standards development goes. Can you tell everyone why you became an advocate for a purpose-built roadway helmet?

Brady Robinette: Yeah, for sure. And so that story started back on January 11th, 2020. I was off duty that day. I was just at my house, it was a Saturday, but crews that were working on the northbound interstate lanes of I-27 north of Lubbock, they were working what I assume they thought was a routine car wreck. We did have spotty ice the night before us. There was spotty ice and they were on the near side of an overpass working that motor vehicle collision. At some point during the incident, a vehicle traveling southbound, so that was the opposite side of traffic, lost control, I presume, and crossed the median and crossed the northbound lanes where they were working and actually went down an embankment; went across the access road, ended up in the field.

But that out-of-control vehicle struck and killed Lieutenant Paramedic Eric Hill. Also struck and killed Lubbock police officer Nicholas Reyna. And then Matt Dawson was also a Firefighter Paramedic. Matt Dawson was also struck, and he survived his injuries that day, but they were definitely critical injuries. He had broken bones all across his body, had long bone breaks. I think his collarbone was breaking. I believe he had a collapsed lung, if I'm not mistaken. But tremendous injuries all across his body. But his overriding injury that he was working so hard to rehab from was his traumatic brain injury. If you've never seen a picture of Matt and throughout his recovery process, I definitely suggest you go look. In the early days, he had part of a skull removed. I'm assuming the doctors did that. So when his brain swelled out, it wouldn't cause the compartmentalized syndrome causing more brain injuries, but it was horrific to look at. As a friend and a fellow firefighter of Matt's and these other responders, this incident affected ... It affected me immensely, as it did our whole community. I can't imagine the families of those responders. But really, since that incident, pretty quick after that incident, I started thinking, "Man, we got to do something better with head protection on the roadway." All of those guys I've mentioned were motivation, but Matt in particular. And one other thing about Matt, he unfortunately passed away in November of 2023, so just a few months ago from recording this, which is horrific, and consider that a line of duty death. But with Matt in particular, I feel confident in saying that if he would've had a helmet on that provided appropriate head protection, he would be alive today.

What is severity of head injury? I don't know. Maybe he could have walked away with a severe concussion. That's what I like to think. But both Eric and Matt had their structural firefighting helmets on that day when they got struck by that vehicle. But about a tenth of a second after they got hit by that vehicle, they didn't have their firefighting helmets on anymore. The impact force of that vehicle knocked their helmets off, of course, thereby providing zero head protection. And so that's really what got me started down this path.

Rod Ammon: Well, I got to say first, I'm sorry for your loss of a friend, and I that all of us have had the people of the community and the families in our minds. I'm sure they're all grateful for what you're doing to move ahead to protect others in the community and across the fire service.

Brady Robinette: Thank you.

Rod Ammon: What did you find when you looked at different helmets and how they stacked up, and the types of forces and impacts that occur in struck-by incidents?

Brady Robinette: I guess I knew it before the incident, but one of the first things I started looking at, does any regulatory body that regulates the Texas Fire Service, where I'm at, say we have to wear a helmet? The answer is no, which I found that ... I think I probably knew that before that incident, but as I thought about that more and more, I found that appalling. Just think about if NASCAR racers didn't have to wear a helmet if they didn't want to. Their pit crews used to didn't, but they do now. After several high profile incidents, they're required to wear helmets now. But if you think about virtually every industry or sport, the regulatory body requires them to wear a helmet, and it only makes sense when there's a danger to the head, we need a helmet on. Of course, there wasn't a standard at that time either. I knew that. But I started looking at, "Well, what are we going to do in the interim?"

Because a standard creation isn't going to be rapid. First, the standard has to get created, then a helmet has to come to market that meets that new standard. That's not going to be fast. So what can we do in the interim? And so what I started doing is I started looking at helmets on the market at that time that were available for some other industry or sport, and I did a lot of searching. I actually ended up building a test machine that performed some roll-off or positional stability test, basically test the helmet's ability to stay on the head when it's needed most, just whether it's going to be in place if something happens, like those structural helmets weren't. But of course tested some firefighting helmets and they easily came off, which wasn't a huge surprise, but then I tested motorcycle helmets, snowboarding helmets, and they all really ... These other type of helmets had really good positional stability, which makes sense because their standard requires them to be tested for that positional stability.

But what I ended up doing with all that research is I found a helmet that I thought would be a good stopgap or interim solution that we could wear here at my department. I went to my Fire Chief, who's a Deputy Chief of Operations at that time, actually still is Deputy Chief of Operations. I showed him these helmets that I was thinking about that we should have on our head, that we should buy for every personnel on our department. We talked about. It's probably about a 45-minute conversation, but basically at the end of that conversation, he said, "You know what? You're right." He said, "We need these helmets, and I'm going to find a way to buy them and I'm going to find ... I don't know where we're going to get the money or how we're going to make this happen, but I'm going to find a way." I think it's probably two months after that we started getting our first set of helmets in, and now everybody at Lubbock Fire Rescue has one of these helmets.

Rod Ammon: It's a beautiful thing, and I know you already mentioned it, but I want to bring it up again, that the structural firefighting helmets didn't do the job on the roadway because of their design. It's great also to remember that you were able to create a change at your own department. So kudos to you for that work. What was your original goal in writing the Fire Engineering article?

Brady Robinette: Yeah, I wrote that Fire Engineering article. I think it was titled Roadway Incident Operations: What's the Right Helmet for the Job? But one thing I wanted to do with that article was just bring attention to the subject and hopefully get other people talking about it. But I definitely in that article made a call for a standard to be created, standards specifically for roadway workers, for the unique hazards they find the roadway poses to their head. So I guess those two things, mainly awareness and then a call to have a standard created. At that time, I had no idea how that may happen, how to get a standard created, but that was my goal.

Rod Ammon: It says a lot about you and the issue that an organization like Fire Engineering would take that on and put that article out as fast as it did. So, nice work on your part and theirs. How did that Fire Engineering article connect you to others who had similar concerns about helmets and first responders, what the first responders were wearing at roadway incident responses?

Brady Robinette: Yes, I think that article really helped me get my foot in the door to start having these conversations. And so pretty quick after that article came out, I got accepted to speak at FDIC International, and that was definitely an honor to get to speak there. I spoke about the contents of the article, and it was really just networking that went from there. Just getting to talk to different people and brainstorm with them, like, "How are we going to make this happen?" Maybe some comments on social media, but really nobody in person came up and said, "Hey, this is a horrible idea. You shouldn't even be talking about this." That didn't happen. It was positive feedback is what it is. Every now and then in a presentation, someone would say, "Well, I don't think it matters what helmet you have on your head. If you get hit by a vehicle traveling at a decent speed, you're going to die anyways." That's just simply not true.

Matt Dawson for several years was living proof of that, but if you search "struck-by incidents" on something like YouTube, you can find incident after incident where folks get struck, police officers, firefighters, whatever the case is, and they live. And so that wasn't simply true, and so there's not a good argument against it. The only other real argument is the cost of it. Yes, cost is a barrier to a lot of things, but these helmets aren't expensive. They're really cheap insurance policies for the amount of protection they can provide. And so, yeah, we've got to get the funding figured out and every location will, but that should just be a minor speed bump into the goal of getting the most important organ in our bodies, our brains, protected.

Rod Ammon: Yeah, it's interesting because I have seen some of those videos, and it's amazing how the body can recover and how someone can recover during that. When you see some of these people who were flipped midair, but they didn't hit their head, and then they ran off the roadway, or somehow got off the roadway, and it's just mind-boggling. So I think it does support your argument. Didn't you have some contact also with Bob Bemis?

Brady Robinette: Yeah, so Bob Bemis is a retired Pennsylvania State Trooper, and at some point after my article came out, he heard about it somehow and he called me up one day and he's like, "Hey, Brady." He said, "I read your article. I really like it." He said, "I want to start helping you with this initiative." And then he told me the reason why. I probably knew part of his story before then, but Bob Bemis is a survivor of a struck-by incident. He pulled over to help, I think it was a trailer on fire or something like that, and he got his extinguisher out of his patrol car, and I believe that was the point when he was walking ahead to start using the extinguisher, a vehicle hit him from behind and he suffered significant injuries to his body and spine. He was in the hospital for I don't know how long, but significant injuries, but he also had a brain injury, and his brain injury took away eyesight out. It was one of his eyes.

So as he's talking to me, he was like, "Brady, I think if I would've had a helmet on that day, I would still have vision in my eye, wouldn't have suffered that head injury." I concurred with him. But he said, "I want to help you in this initiative." He said, "What can I do?" And I said, "Well, one of the things we need to do, and I'm glad you reached out to me from the law enforcement side, is started involving law enforcement in this subject." And so he wrote an article for Police1 magazine that's out on the internet. You can search it. I think it's called something like Protecting the Pedestrian Police Officer. His article is the one that actually I credit with really getting the standards process started. His article caught the attention of this law enforcement guy. I can't think of his name off the top of my head. I believe his first name is Tom. Tom reached out to a contact he had at NIST, National Institute Standards Technology, and that scheduled a first meeting amongst us for the NIST person, which is Casandra Robinson. And then Tom, Bob and I, we talked about this, and they had been working on a helmet standard for ballistic or riot helmets. We were just talking about each other's needs as far as what their standard calls out for and what we were talking about as far as roadway workers. At the end of that, Cassy Robinson from NIST, she works at NUSTL now, but she said, "Hey, I think this needs its own standard." And Bob and I are like, "Heck, yeah. That's what we've been saying all along." She said, "Well, let's get this deal going." That's how the process started.

ASTM formed a work group, then it ended up being over 50 plus people in that work group. It was anywhere from boots on the ground type folks from towing to, of course, law enforcement, fire, DOT personnel were in there, but also in the room where helmet manufacturing folks from helmet testing laboratories, folks from academia. A hugely diverse group of people. Really, that call that Bob placed to me was really what kick-started the standards development process.

Rod Ammon: Yeah, that's great news. It just keeps getting better the way ... what you ignited and how it just kept growing and took on speed. You then got in touch with Emergency Responder Safety Institute and Responder Safety. How did that happen?

Brady Robinette: It was probably just a few weeks after the incident on January 11th. I somehow found Jack Sullivan's contact information, and so I think I placed an email to him and he responded with a bunch of good information. But directly after that, it led to a phone call that Jack and I had, and I was just amazed at the wealth of information Jack has, and I was talking about helmets a lot. He's really the one that helped lead me down the path of writing that article that got published that we spoke about just a second ago. He recommended I do that. He helped review it as it got closer and closer to finished, after I spent all the time to write it up.

And then Emergency Responder Safety Institute, Jack Sullivan and all those guys, Steve Austin, all of them, they've been a great resource throughout this whole process. I, for sure, couldn't have done it without them. If I wouldn't have ever had that first call with Jack to get me plugged in there, I definitely wouldn't have had the success that I've been fortunate enough to have. So it's been great. Still talk to Jack and all those guys at Emergency Responder Safety Institute regularly.

Rod Ammon: Yeah, there's some good folks, I know. Well, they've made a difference in our lives and got us to be part of the team that does a lot of the things that we produce for responders on the roadway. Can you talk a little bit about the process for developing the standard?

Brady Robinette: I'd never been involved in a standard development process, so it was all new to me. Luckily, Cassy Robinson has done this many a times. That was one of her main jobs when she worked for NIST is that's what they helped do is get standards developed. I can't say enough good things about her. She is such a capable person and highly intelligent, but what I like best about her is she just gets things done. She had been through this process before with other standards, even helmet standards, and she was able to advise me and Bob and those others involved in the process, "Here's what we need to do." But what we started with, though, is we sent a survey out, and we tried to get the survey out to as many roadway workers across the nation as we could. Of course we wanted to hit all disciplines, towing and recovery, DOT, fire, EMS, law enforcement. We tried to get it out to as many as we could. What we were asking is, "What do you as a person that works on the roadway in and around moving traffic want in a roadway helmet?" And so we just surveyed on a lot of stuff. We asked them if vision ... so that they have good peripheral, so horizontal and vertical vision. Maybe a motorcycle helmet impedes on that some because it comes pretty close to the eyes. That was one of the things they said, "No, we want to have really good vision. We don't want the helmet obstructing our vision. We want to be able to see danger if it's coming." But we ask them if impact protection not only to the top of the head, which is like what a structural firefighting helmet and a hard hat provides, but we ask them if it was important to them to have impact protection to the front, back and sides of the helmet. We just found out they are really concerned about the ability to communicate on scene. Maybe something like a full-face motorcycle helmet that covers your mouth with a big chin bar could muffle your voice and maybe you wouldn't be able to talk to other personnel on scene. And so verbal and radio communication was important to them. We asked a whole bunch of questions. There's a whole bunch more, but we had them rate all those on a scale from 1 to 10. The things that were the most important to these roadway workers were the things that we for sure included in the standard and spent more time on, and the things that weren't as important, or maybe something that was important just for one agency, maybe like DOT, then we made that an optional standard inside the process. But once we had those survey results, we just started meeting with all the technical experts and we were like, "Okay, well, this is important to the roadway workers. How are we going to solve that in the standard as far as performance criteria?" We just started working through that process, and it was really neat to get to see that process. There's some really intelligent folks in those conversations, and I really enjoyed going throughout all that process. But through this process, helmets were even destructively tested to test current theories or help us refine some impact number that we were looking at, or whatever the case is. But a lot of folks did a lot of work on this.

Rod Ammon: Beautiful, and it happened so fast. Well, it happened fast verse related to how standards get done. But from what I understand, it was mind-blowingly fast to people. Jack Sullivan, I know, said, "This almost never happens." So now it's there. I think I saw you post something up on social media yesterday saying, "Hey guys, here it is." So who does and will the standard apply to?

Brady Robinette: The standard right now is just a standard that exist in ASTM. If you don't know anything about ASTM, they're a global consensus body standards organization. They maintain somewhere around 12,000 standards across all kinds of stuff. But right now, it's just a standard, and if nothing else happens, that standard will just collect dust and nothing will ever happen 10 or 20 years from now. But what needs to happen is we need our first helmet manufacturer to say, "Hey, I want to develop a helmet that meets that standard." Hopefully, multiple helmet manufacturers, but we need at least one to start with.

But what we also need though is regulatory bodies, city managers, a manager at a towing company or owner of a towing company to say, "Hey, we want to adopt the helmet that meets the standard." My biggest fear is that that standard will just collect dust and nothing will ever happen, and it's a very real risk, but I don't believe that's what's going to happen, and I'm going to work hard to help ensure that that doesn't happen. But I need help of everybody out there that has dangers when they work on the roadway, which is all of us to start speaking up about this and saying, "Hey, we want a helmet that meets the standard. We want to start wearing it."

Rod Ammon: Just as a review. What I remembered hearing from you was, it's everybody who's responding on the roadway, so public safety, fire service, emergency medical services, law enforcement, fire police, road and highway construction and maintenance, towing recovery, departments of transportation, safety service patrol. There's a lot of folks out there trying to do the right thing, and we're still losing them while they're trying to help people on the roadway. I know you're going to have a lot of support coming out of the folks that you've already seen. It feels that way to me, and it certainly seems that way when I hear what's being said at Emergency Responder Safety Institute, ResponderSafety.com. What were the major design requirements in the published standard? Can you talk a little bit about that?

Brady Robinette: I think first and foremost, it would just be the impact, protecting properties of it against hard surfaces, which like a structural firefighting helmet or a hard hat, are just going to protect or attest to impacts to the top or the crown of the head. And so in this standard, we move that down to the sides, the front and the back. The standard is going to require all these impact points all around, and on top of the head to make sure that there is impact protection in all those locations. I think impact protection would be the number one priority of any helmet standard. But some other, I think, important attributes are with this helmet standard in particular, is that it also has a test to simulate flying roadway debris. So if a lug nut or a guardrail bolt gets kicked up off the roadway and is thrown at the responder, there's a test in the standard that simulates that to see if it's going to provide appropriate protection.

Some of the other things are maybe more standard in other standards, like chin strap strength, positional stability I talked about earlier, when it's going to be on the head in place when it's needed most. There's optional tests in the standard for electrical resistance. That's important to DOT personnel that may be working around high lines. There's test in the standard for its visibility for daytime and nighttime conditions, or low light daytime and low light conditions. There's a lot of stuff in there. I think it's 16 pages, or so, of stuff in there. There's a ton of stuff.

There's optional standard in there for fire resistance. And so we're not thinking about replacing the structural helmet and saying, "Hey, you could wear either one of these." That's not the case. If a firefighter shows up on scene and a vehicle's on fire, they need to be wearing their structural firefighting gear, including their structural firefighting helmet. But maybe there's some advantage of having some heat resistance. Maybe an easier merge in between two helmets would be like the wildland firefighting helmet and this roadway helmet or something like that. I think it'll be a lot longer before this roadway helmets merged with a structural firefighting helmet. It could someday, but that's a big step there to make that happen.

Rod Ammon: Just for listeners, there will be a link on this page that'll take you people to the standard so that you could take a look at that. If you're listening through one of the other many distribution points for the podcast, you would go over to ResponderSafety.com and the Responder Safety Learning Network and go to the podcast page, and the link will be there where you could read the standard itself. All right, I think you talked enough about the testing requirements and the published standard and now I'm thinking, "Okay, it's here." So what happens next? You already teased into this. There's a lot to be done.

Brady Robinette: Yeah, there's a lot to be done. One of the first steps that I want to take is trying to affect the fire service. It's not because I think the fire service is more important than any of those other groups of roadway workers. It's just because I'm a fireman, I think I can more easily affect it more rapidly. But I'm also interested in simultaneously if someone has ideas how to affect these other roadway workers. I want to start working on that too.

But my first action that I've already started is trying to get this included in NFPA, the National Fire Protection Association. Where I want to put that is in NFPA 1550, it used to be 1500, the safety standard. And so in there, in that existing standard, there's a section on roadway incident operations. One of the bullets under there says if firefighters are working around moving traffic on the roadway, that they should have an ANSI 107 high-visibility vest on; unless exposed to fire, then they'll have structural firefighting gear on. But I think this ASTM helmet standard should be in that same section right there. If they have a high-visibility vest on, or required to, they should have a ASTM roadway helmet on.

Rod Ammon: So by educating everyone and by having the standard, we're hoping that the demand will come. And by letting people know about it and about the need, we're going to be hoping that more folks in departments, organizations and responders start to say, "Hey, I need this." And also, could you talk a little bit about the manufacturers?

Brady Robinette: Yeah. So the helmet manufacturers, we actually had two involved with the standard development. We had Team Wendy in there and then a representative from Kask. They provided invaluable input, and they're the ones that did some of the testing in their team Wendy. They did actually quite a bit of testing and they weren't getting paid to do that. They just volunteered to do it. Nobody in this process got paid to do any of this, and so, I really appreciate them for their efforts in there. And so they were involved throughout the whole process. They were just one vote in the process as we went through saying, "Hey, we think it should do this." Or the test standard should specify this specific criteria. But man, I really appreciate them being involved in that process and I hope one or both of those helmet manufacturers decide to create a helmet that meets this standard.

Rod Ammon: And also you mentioned NFPA that you wanted to get in touch with them and then has been done with MUTCD and other PPE standards. It takes time and we need to work through it and get those tied into or incorporated into NFPA standards. What about government? What are you looking for there?

Brady Robinette: I think government could play an important role in this, whether we're talking about local, state, or federal government. I'm interested in speaking at all those levels. Many folks, I guess would say they're not for big government and regulations, you must do this or you must do that. But in my opinion, in this case or any case that involves safety, it is warranted. And so I'm actually in favor of government regulations that state that an ASTM roadway helmet would be required. To me, it only makes sense. And I think also when those mandates, if they come out, it'll hopefully lead towards more funding options to make that happen. So I'm in favor of it.

Rod Ammon: Yeah, I hear you. Me too. Not that what I think matters, but from what I've seen from all of you around there and what we've seen with all the fatalities and injuries, it certainly does seem like an appropriate thing for government to get involved in to protect the people that are working to protect others. What do you think is needed to implement this standard in as many places as possible?

Brady Robinette: Yeah, that's a good question. We talk back to regulations. Ideally, we wouldn't have to have regulations. Folks would just see the benefit of this and start adopting it now. And so that's what I hope happens. It just organically, rapidly grows. My end goal, I don't think I've said it yet, is mass nationwide adoption of all roadway workers. You mentioned several of the groups earlier. Another way we could say it is just anybody that's wearing or should be wearing a high visibility vest should be wearing an ASTM roadway helmet. And so I think hopefully local organizations decide to make the decision to adopt a helmet. We need NFPA to step up and get this implemented through a TIA, which is an emergency action item that can get it mid-standard revision. We need that to happen, and we just need government bodies to start looking at this and seeing where they can incorporate it. We need OSHA to adopt this and many, many others or other organizations that affect towing EMS and law enforcement, in addition to the fire service.

Rod Ammon: Yeah, it's a big job. You got USFA out there. And then the National Fallen Firefighters Foundation has a lot to do with health and safety. I know we do a network with them. And I'm wondering, is there anything you could talk about, has there been any progress with the National Fallen Firefighters?

Brady Robinette: Yeah, I've definitely spoke to the NFFF a lot about this, and they've been very supportive of it. Some of their personnel are on the NFPA standard. They're one of the committee members that I mentioned. And so yeah, I think they can play a big role in this. But as far as fire service organizations, or organizations of any of these other roadway worker groups, what we need them to do in my opinion, is to be vocal about this. Them come out expressing the desire to have adoption of this roadway helmet. They have big voices, and those big voices can matter with an issue like this. So yeah, we them talking about it expressing their support for roadway helmets.

Rod Ammon: So where are you starting to see support outside of the fire service? Have you seen traction in other places?

Brady Robinette: Well, there's been some traction in better head protection, and some of it happened even before I started on this process. Virginia DOT adopted a new type of helmet, not the old hard hat that doesn't have a chin strap to, what I would call, a safety helmet or it's actually a class two hard hat, but it has a chin strap and it has way better protection than what the traditional hard hat does. One being that it's going to stay on your head, but it just has more protective properties. And they bought one of those for all their personnel. And this was prior to my work, like I mentioned, the Georgia's Heroes Unit, their safety service patrols, again, they decided to adopt roadway helmets and it was prior to my work. And so there's definitely interest in traction outside of the fire service either prior to my work or since I've been working on this, but I've yet to see law enforcement agencies adopt this. I'm really excited when we get our first one, but we need towing to jump on board and other state and federal DOTs to do the same.

Rod Ammon: Yeah, I hear you. I drive a lot and every time I see another responder or another, whether they want to be called a responder or not, one of the people that are out there working the roadway to help others either without a vest or without a helmet or without things, it just gives me just a quick chill and I'm like, "Oh man, just do a little bit better. It can happen to you." What challenges do you see to widespread implementation? And I'm going to say the number, not that it matters, but, well, I guess it will. I'm not a numbers guy, but ASTM E3422.

Brady Robinette: I think the barriers to adoption, the biggest one is going to be culture. The fire service may have a little bit of easier time with it just because most fire departments across the nation, I believe, are wearing their firefighting helmet on the roadway today. So what we're talking about is just wearing a different kind of helmet. And here in Lubbock, I've received a lot of positive feedback from the folks now that they're wearing roadway helmets. They're lighter than their firefighting helmets. They're cooler, they're not as hot to wear, they don't hurt your neck. They're not heavy and unbalanced. I think law enforcement on the other hand, is going to be a bigger challenge. They're not used to wearing any type of helmet when they work on the roadway.

Their motorcycle division is probably used to wear motorcycle helmets and their mountain division is probably wearing helmets, but the majority of law enforcement officers aren't out there aren't. And so I think that's going to be a big step. It's just the culture change. When bulletproof vests started coming about in the '70s, I've been told there was initial and lots of resistance to those bulletproof vest, excuses like, "I'm not going to be able to maneuver as well. If I get hand-to-hand combat, it's going to inhibit me." But now you look back, you look at law enforcement and you hardly can't find an officer without a bulletproof vest on. And its culture and human nature to resist change. And I think that's where we need to pull down that barrier. I think in a number of years from now, however long that is, folks will be wearing roadway helmets and they won't think twice about it. They may even feel naked if they don't have it on something's missing and then go back to their apparatus and get their helmet. Other changes, I guess that could delay us, or things that could delay us, is just the cost of it. The folks are going to have to find the money for this in an existing budget if they're a municipality with a budget, or find a way to get it from somewhere else, donated, whatever the case might be, or get it implemented in their next budget cycle.

Rod Ammon: I've been around the fire service working with you all for 20 some years, and change is a tough thing. I liked what you said about sometimes you're going to feel naked if you don't have it. I've always worn a really high-end motorcycle helmet full face, and I went out Wisconsin one day with some other folks. Nobody was wearing helmets and sunglasses. I think I made it, must've been like a couple miles before I was like, "You got to be kidding me. I'm not doing this." It felt so strange. So I hope we all get there. And by the way, I went and put my helmet back on because it just felt so wrong. What's the best argument you think? Why to change, and why is it worth it?

Brady Robinette: I guess that's a really good question. What's the biggest argument for it? I'll back up just a little bit and say something I wish I would've said earlier when I was talking about Matt, but Matt, some of the guys from Rispool here in Texas have told me he's the largest workers' comp claim they've ever had. And from an employer perspective, I think there's a lot of incentive to look at this. Not only from the cost of potential claims, which shouldn't be first. What should be first is the health and wellness of their personnel. But helmets work. That's why every industry and every sport wear them. I'm at race motorcycles for a hobby, and I've hit my head smack dab into trees multiple times, and I got right back up and finished that race because helmets work really well. They do their job. And so anytime there's a risk to the head, we should be having a helmet on.

I think the argument's a bunch, but it's, "Helmets work," we should have them on. A lot of times I title my presentation, "What's your head worth?" And when I start that presentation, I say, "That's probably one of the most impactful things I'm going to say today." And I usually say it at the end of the presentation too, is the final thing I say. But anybody out there listening today, just think about that for a second. "What's your head worth? What's your head worth to you? What's your head worth to your kids, your spouse, your family, your friends, your employers, and your co-workers?"

Rod Ammon: Yeah, I forget what I used to see on the motorcycle ad. Something like a $20 helmet. Is that what your head's worth? So I think an important thing here, and I had one note left, is to those cities and states and federal when it comes to funding and, as you said, the number one priority of the lives of these people that are out there very often volunteering to help people on the road. But I think a really good argument that will have a long-term effect will be the people that deal with risk management, helmets and how they can mitigate risk and reduce costs and keep people working and safe. So I am so grateful for all the work you've done and everything I've learned about this has come from you or the people around you that you motivated. So I just want to say thanks again for your leadership on this. Is there anything else that you wanted to bring up before we say goodbye and get this up out there for people to hear?

Brady Robinette: I don't think I can think of anything else. I think we've pretty much covered it. There's a lot of information available. Some of it will be linked with the podcast. Definitely look out there, see what's all out there. There's some really good topics on Responder Safety Learning Network has a helmet module out there. There's some other interviews I've done. Share this information, share this podcast, share some of those other interviews I've done with other personnel in your same industry or in some other industry. Let's help get the word out.

Rod Ammon: Once again, thanks so much for what you do. And a note that I had here was we encourage everyone to check out the standard and keep up on developments on the helmets and head protection at ResponderSafety.com. Links to the resources that Brady has mentioned are on this podcast page and on RSLN.org. Brady, you be well, be safe, and thanks again for all you do.

Brady Robinette: Thank you, sir.

Rod Ammon: We encourage everyone to check out the standard and to keep up on developments on our helmets and head protection page on ResponderSafety.com. Links to those resources are on this podcast page on RSLN.org.

Now for some pretty good news for ResponderSafety.com, the Cumberland Valley Volunteer Firefighters Association is pleased to announce that it has been awarded a FEMA Fire Prevention and Safety Grant for this year's cycle. This grant supports ResponderSafety.com and the Responder Safety Learning Network. We will share the project supported under this grant soon. Finally, just a quick reminder to connect with us on social media for timely updates on news and emergency response and ResponderSafety.com activities. Like and follow us on Facebook at facebook.com/roadwaysafety, on Instagram at instagram.com/respondersafety, and on X at x.com/respondersafety. If you know of an incident where an emergency vehicle or a responder was struck while operating at a roadway incident, please report it at reportstruckby.com. That's reportstruckby.com. We are collecting these reports better understand how struck-by incidents occur, so we can determine what training, public education, and safety messaging is needed to reduce struck-by incidents. Anyone can file a report. You can report anonymously. Reports from all response groups are accepted.

This podcast ResponderSafety.com and the Responder Safety Learning Network are made possible by funding from a Fire Prevention and Safety Grant from the Assistance to Firefighters Grants Program administered by FEMA and the U.S. Department of Homeland Security. We appreciate your support, and remember to share these podcasts with your colleagues to spread the word about safety practices at roadway incident scenes. Thanks for joining us today on the podcast. Stay safe everybody. We'll see you next time. For ResponderSafety.com, I'm Rod Ammon.

ResponderSafety.com

ASTM E3422/E3422M-24. Standard Specification for Protective Helmets Worn by Pedestrian Roadway Workers.

Helmets and Head Protection page. ResponderSafety.com.

ReportStruckBy.com